Episode notes:

• Follow Tom on LinkedIn

• Learn more about CSR Talent Group 

• Check out the CECP Giving in Numbers report

• Get a primer on ERGs 

Transcript:

This transcript was automatically generated.

Within the CSR sector, a lot of energy goes towards figuring out why employees aren't more involved in giving and volunteering programs. And that's a really important question, but sometimes it gets directed at employees when, really, what's needed is a little self reflection from companies themselves and a willingness to meet employees where they are.

That can feel easier said than done, especially when every employee is coming to the table with their own unique values and experiences.

In particular, many companies are struggling to reach deskless and remote employees, people who are not coming to an office or connected to a computer throughout their workday. But without their involvement, CSR programs won't get the participation that they need to really be successful.

So how do you create an on ramp that feels personal and approachable for every employee no matter how they work?

Welcome to Impact Audio. I'm Sam Caplan, vice president of social impact at Submittable.

Today, I'm joined by Tom Knowlton, CEO of CSR Talent Group. He consults with companies of all sizes on how to make CSR programs more resonant and successful.

Tom Knowlton, founder and CEO of CSR Talent Group. Welcome to Impact Audio. I'm super excited to have you for this conversation today.

Thank you, Sam. It's great to be here. Really, really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you.

Yeah, of course. Well, let let's start things off. Like, tell me a little bit about you and and about your organization.

Yeah. A little bit of background. I was a consultant for about twenty years with a social impact firm called TCC Group, and I headed up their corporate practice.

So I've I've worked with a lot of companies over the years on their CSR, ESG sustainability programs, and we saw that there was a real need for companies to get access to to independent experts, not necessarily a full scale consulting firm, but, people with really specialized expertise. So we started this firm, CSR Talent Group, to assist companies in finding talent, that that could help them with employee engagement or impact reports or materiality assessment.

So we now have over three hundred experts in our network, and we not only find full time talent, but we also find consultants and experts for fractional roles as well.

That's really interesting. And, and go a little bit deeper into, like, what is what types of subject matter experts are do you have in the network, and and what type of work do they tend to do, with all of these corporations that you work with?

Yeah, it's a great question. It's really all over the map.

Sort of the standard consulting projects you might think of helping with ESG strategy, helping to develop program ideas, things that consulting firms actually do.

But a lot of these companies want a senior level person doing the work themselves instead of bringing in five junior folks to do all the all the work or eighty percent of the work.

But we also do things like materiality assessments, social impact reports.

We're getting a lot of calls from companies around helping with data collection, around meeting regulations, the the upcoming SEC regulations, but also CSRD.

You know?

A lot of these companies, especially midsize companies, just don't have the expertise in house to do the work they need to do. So, we're here we're here to help fill those gaps.

And then and we've had the chance to talk a couple of times now, Tom, and a a topic that we keep coming back to is employee engagement. And this is becoming, I think, a more and more important part of CSR strategy.

Like, talk with me a little bit about, like, what does the term employee engagement mean to you? And, like, how is your organization and your network engaged with companies who are looking to either stand up or to, evolve their own employee engagement program?

Yeah, it's a really interesting question. And I've thought about this for so many years in the twenty years I was consulting and now the four years I've been running this firm.

You know, employee engagement, we tend to think of it as volunteering, employee giving, matching gifts, and it certainly is that. But, thinking more broadly, the importance of employee engagement continues to rise just because of the I think some of the subjects we're gonna talk about today, COVID, remote work, hybrid work, deskless workers, virtual workers.

As we all know, there is sort of an increasing concern about mental health issues with, especially the younger folk, and, what's the role of companies in helping to engage employees to support them in a number of different ways. So I think what we're gonna talk about today is some of the practical issues around how to engage employees around volunteering and but but also how to how to engage them around the company's purpose and, aligning with the company's values and the company purpose and what the company is trying to to say to their stakeholders and their their customers as well as their employees, and how they want them to feel like they're part of, you know, a family, frankly.

So when I think of employee engagement, I I I wanna pull back a little bit from tracking just employee hours and and talking about specific events and more importantly around, you know, what does it take to help these employees feel like they're part of a group that's supporting them, not just for mental health reasons, but just to feel like they're working in a company that they feel good about and that they wanna stay at. So companies do this because they wanna recruit folks and and keep them, as well as get the support that they want for, meeting stakeholder expectations.

So I don't it was sort of a broad answer, but I wanted to frame it that way because I think we're gonna gonna go down under the weeds a little bit.

Yeah. Well and and I'll just build a little bit on what you were saying. So I recently read, CECP's latest giving in numbers report for, for this last year, and they collect data from several hundred companies, many of those Fortune one hundred companies that have CSR programs.

And in this report, they call out that the definition of employee engagement has really been expanding and broadening over the last couple of years. So to your point, we used to say it was volunteering. It was giving and matching. Now we see a lot of companies adding to that definition with, like, personal sustainability programs and employee resource groups and, diversity, equity, and inclusion programs. So to your point, like, this is really becoming a larger thing, than than what it has traditionally been over the last twenty plus years.

And also to your point, Tom, like, this is also becoming a really important tool for corporations to actually create meaningful relationships with their employees, which go on to lead to, to benefits like, like, longevity.

So I'd love to hear a little bit more from your perspective. Like, as we continue to see this definition broaden, like, what should companies be thinking about to create that really deep, meaningful relationship and connection with their employees?

Yeah. I think there's a there's a couple of things. I was talking with somebody this morning just about this issue.

You know, CSR leaders, ESG leaders, whatever term you have for the people in the corporate impact space, often feel isolated, often feel like they're in a department by themselves, and not understood or respected. And I think the really good companies know how to make sure that the people working in this space are connecting with other departments. And, obviously, with HR, for example, over the years, I I've seen that connection get a little stronger, but also with marketing communication, all the different departments that are are reaching out to stakeholders, including employees.

It doesn't really work, in my opinion, as well as it could, if senior leaders are not understanding how this should be integrated throughout the company and how important is to your point of employee engagement being more than just giving and volunteering, but really about, you know, the whole person and the connection to the company. It's it's only gonna happen if they feel like they are part of something that's important.

And and in order to do that, all the departments need to feel like, you know, they're working together to to support that employee or to connect with them or to understand what they need. Because I think as we get into this discussion, we'll realize, as anybody would, that everybody's a little bit different, different age, different place in career.

So things need to be customized as much as you possibly can without, you know, creating huge expense. So there's there's some, need to understand the value and importance of this, which I think we've been hearing about for decades.

But I'm not sure senior leaders have totally understood it, but I do think they're starting to understand that, this is a real important aspect of their business, especially with, COVID and hybrid work and, the fact that many younger people joining a company may not feel as connected as they would have if they were going into the office every day.

Yeah. And and in addition to corporations acknowledging the importance of the work, I think they're also thinking about how to not just address engagement with employees who may work at the headquarters or home office or have a traditional knowledge based job, but with all employees across an organization.

I came from Walmart Corporation where I worked for many years and eventually landed at the Walmart Foundation.

The vast majority of Walmart's employees are not what we would refer to as a, you know, a knowledge based worker who's sitting at a desk in front of a laptop all day, but they are cashiers. They are, people who work at a distribution center. Maybe they're driving a truck and delivering merchandise.

Like, so we're beginning to think a lot about how do we make sure that the benefits of these engagement programs extend to all employees and not just those who are working at a desk all day long. And I know this is something you've been thinking about with your colleagues as well. Right?

Absolutely. And, just to just to give a little bit of background on this conversation, as you know, we have this network of over three hundred consultants. We reached out to five folks that have worked in companies and and tackled some of these issues, and I did interviews with all of them. And then I went back out to the network and asked them to comment on what those five had said.

And I think what struck me and we were talking about the deskless worker or the the hybrid worker or the types of worker you were talking about at Walmart, the cashiers, or or people working on the floor. You know, how do you reach them, and how do you connect with them, and how important is it to do so? So, you know, I think what we heard, especially, given the hybrid situation in COVID, this has become even much more important. It it's it's something that's in the minds of CEOs now, that may not have been there as much before, except for companies like Walmart, which, you know, figured this out pretty early on that they needed to to do things to to help connect with folks. I think that CEOs and senior leaders are understanding the the importance of connecting with those types of workers now more so than they did even five years ago.

Yeah. Well, a couple great data points from that CECP survey, that that I think speak to this need to include everyone.

So, employee volunteerism programs last year had around twenty three percent participation.

Giving and matching is even worse. Traditionally, around twenty percent of employees, participate in those programs. And certainly, like, a a significant reason why more employees don't participate is that those programs are not designed for and targeted to employees who may be in these deskless or virtual types of job roles. So I'm super interested to hear from you, Tom. As as you spoke to your your five experts and then heard from so many more throughout your organization, what can corporations do to be more inclusive of all of the workers across the organization versus just those who are most easily reached because they sit in front of a laptop all day.

Yeah.

Well, you bring up a really good point, and I I wanna touch on that, and then I'll get into that specific answer.

The twenty three percent of participation. You you know, it's the kind of thing that senior leaders focus on is, you know, how many people are we getting out to volunteer, which to me is really not the right metric. It's it's one indicator.

But that's why a lot of companies do these, you know, volunteer days so they can boost those numbers and report that seventy eight percent of employees participated when in fact half of them probably didn't even wanna do it.

So the metric is really about back to engagement. Are we engaging well with our employees?

Are we reaching them? And and sometimes that's really just about communication.

Does the cashier or the person working on the floor in the manufacturing area feel like senior leadership understands them, values them, is supporting them. And some of that can often be done just through communication without having to do volunteer programs.

But the five experts I talked to spoke specifically about this too. How do you make it easy for them to do something that's of interest and of value to them.

First thing I just wanna make sure that everybody understands is that we heard from everybody I talked to that, getting management on board is really middle management on board is is one of the biggest priorities because, without that, it's really hard to make things work.

Assuming that you've got middle managers understanding the value of this and participating, then there are a lot of things that are are happening now that really weren't around more than five years ago, partly due to technology. We've heard a lot about, self guided, programs where people can can do work at home and log their hours and and be congratulated and credited for participating in helping the company, do something. And and companies like Taproot and Catchafire have developed all kinds of technology that allows employees to do things, on their own time, at home or even at work if they have a break.

You know, second, it's it's it's also about making it really easy by bringing in, activities to the break room or, you know, into the company, where somebody can spend twenty minutes writing letters to veterans or, assembling a kit that's gonna go out to, you know, a homeless center, or bringing in food, things like that. So there's there's all kinds of things that I think companies are doing to think about making it easier for people who don't have a laptop or a computer.

And part of that also is, making sure people receive information on their phones, at home.

And I heard from a number of people, that I spoke to that making sure that senior leaders are congratulating them or managers are recognizing their participation is often one of the key incentives for employees to do this. They they want to know that they're being appreciated, that, the people that they report to understand why they're doing it and are acknowledging it and giving them credit for it. So we heard that over and over again and that people were not looking to be compensated for it. It wasn't about money. It was about feeling connected to the company in a way that they might not normally feel on their day to day, work routine.

Right. And and I wanna go back to something you said that that resonated with me. You talked about, like, the leadership of a company really understanding all of the workers.

And it strikes me that that can be a really a real challenge for, for a company's leadership when it comes to understanding employees that they don't frequently interact with. So, you know, the the people who are are driving a truck, who are working, you know, on the floor of a warehouse, who are standing in front of a register.

Like, do you have thoughts in terms of how senior leadership at an organization can truly get to know, like, what's most important to all of the employees across an organization versus just those that they interface the most with?

Yeah. That's a great question. I don't think there's a there's a perfect answer for that because if you have a hundred thousand employees or you've got employees scattered all over the globe, it's it's impossible for a CEO or a senior leader sometimes to connect with them all. So the question then is what's what's the structure?

What's the framework that helps those employees feel like they're understood by management? And I I know we're not necessarily focusing on the ERGs today, but, ERGs are one one tool for a company to use to help employees, get recognition, get give them a voice, and to feel like their the company understands what their issues or concerns are. And, you know, what's interesting about that is, without getting into too much details, I think they're really evolving. I you you bring up the fact that you worked at Walmart.

I talked to one individual who had talked to somebody at Walmart recently about how, you know, they're trying to rethink some of their I think they call them associate resource groups, but they also now are starting business resource groups. And, it's a way to to not only recognize individuals of a certain group or type or interest, but to make those groups feel more connected to the business, as opposed to feeling like it's just an independent group that is is not connected to the business at all. So, I wish I had a a perfect answer for that because I I I think if you've got a really large company, it's it's just hard for any senior leader to totally understand what a truck driver goes through every day, for example.

But if that truck driver is part of a group, a truck driver's group or some other, community that's helping to voice their interests and concerns, I think through an ERG or a business resource group, that's one way of doing it.

Yeah. And I'm glad to hear you bring up ERGs and and similar types of groups out there. One of the things that my colleagues and I at Submittable talk a lot about is ways that a company can democratize the process a little bit more. So, you know, ten years ago, many organizations had these, like, days of volunteering or there would be, like, one volunteer experience, and everybody from the organization would, would go volunteer for for four hours or spend a day at a nonprofit helping out.

And there's certainly value in doing those types of things. But the challenge is that the decisions around what types of causes to support and what the volunteer activity is going to be often comes from, like, a very narrow group frequently from, like, the leadership team within a a CSR or social impact program without a lot of input or engagement from employees across the company. And one of the things that we're seeing, especially over the last eighteen to twenty four months, is this evolution of democratization where employees are having much more purview, into determining what types of causes are gonna be supported, what nonprofit organizations, are going to be supported, what volunteer activities are gonna happen, at a company.

I'm really curious, like, as you as you talk about employee resource groups and getting to know the wants and needs of individual employees? Like, do you feel like this democratization is something that is going to influence, volunteer programs long term? Or maybe was this just a response to, you know, to the pandemic and sort of changing programs as a result of having to change them because you couldn't do their traditional volunteer opportunities?

No. I think I think it's an evolution, and I I think it's here to stay. I I in my twenty years of consulting, I heard this over and over again that the balance between identifying nonprofits or organizations or causes that that the employees wanted to to support, it could have been, you know, a pet program that may not be aligned with what the company was focusing on, which might have been a health issue or something like that. So, I don't think it's an either or.

I think there's a way to do both. And, you know, what we hear is that the the millennials and the, you know, the younger generations, the zillennials want to feel like there's, purpose in their work. So I see it two ways. One is, what does the company stand for?

What kind of company is it? Are they in a space I was having this conversation this morning with a company that does really interesting work around helping organization disaster relief organizations.

But is it a kind of company that has a natural social purpose, like a health care company, versus a company that may not, which is maybe more b to b or, you know, a a supplier of parts for somebody else.

And if if somebody goes to that health care company expecting that company to be doing real programs around health, they've gotta do that, and they've gotta have employee programs that support it. Regardless, we're talking about how to engage employees, and and many employees wanted want support to do things in their community or in in their neighborhood with other employees and to feel part of, maybe a more local or regional approach that the company may not be thinking about in its larger programmatic area. So, yes, democratizing it, giving people a voice, there's so many more tools now to to make it easy for companies to allow employees to do that.

Going back to the technology issue, it's, and how some of the the platforms out there like Taproot and others are are building that ability to to help companies figure that out. So I don't think that's going away. And I I think companies are gonna see real benefits from employees feeling like they're able to participate in something that really is important to them and that the company helped them do it. So in answer to your question, short answer is it's here to stay, and it'll be interesting to see how it evolves even further.

Yeah. I think so too.

Tom, in one of our previous conversations, you described a story about a self guided volunteer experience that was really successful. I would love it if you could retell that story for everyone.

Yeah.

We've heard a couple things about this.

And, somebody was telling me one of the five people I interviewed talked about a woman with small children who, you know, was incredibly busy at work and at home and didn't have time to go participate in the volunteer activities, at the company. So, there were and I'm not sure if this is the same story we were talking about before, but, she was set up with a program where she could, participate in a phone bank and, you know, for an hour a month. And she could do it any hour she wanted to.

It was really about reaching out to different I won't go into the details of exactly what it was, but, she was providing, you know, support for people that were calling in to a phone bank for a certain cause. And really gratifying for her, she could do it at ten o'clock at night when her kids were asleep and, you know, during a week when she wasn't exhausted.

I think more and more of that's gonna come to fruition. And and, again, I keep coming back to the technology because it was a nonprofit that had that technological ability to set her up and make it easier for her to do that. And we've we've seen it in other ways too with more physical things where people take, take things home and, you know, assemble packages that are then shipped out for homeless folks or youth or whatever the cause is. And it's it's very gratifying, and it's really recognizing that this person may only have an hour and a month to to do this, and it's gotta be on their own time, and it's gotta be really flexible.

So I I love seeing that sort of thing because it's just there were so many things back in the days, you know, fifteen, twenty years ago where companies were sort of forcing employees to do things during the company hours, and they they didn't have time to do it. And they just got behind in their work. This way, they can really be flexible and and do it on their own time in a way that's that's gonna be meaningful to them.

And and not to turn our our conversation here into a commercial for submittable in any way, Tom, but I am very excited to hear you, promote the, role of technology in all of this. We certainly think that technology, you know, isn't the silver bullet. It's not the answer, but, it's definitely a great opportunity to help grow engagement, of programs across an organization.

And going back a couple of months, we, we welcomed a organization called WiseHive into the Submittable family.

One of the WiseHive brands was a separate company called We Hero. And We Hero does exactly what you were just describing. So they put together, these volunteer experiences that can be participated in by employees really across, you know, large organizations and across multiple geographies so they can put together these kits that get sent to everybody that allow them, you know, either at a set time or on their own to do this volunteer work.

And they've discovered that it's a really, really important way to engage employees really regardless of what their job role is, what their location is, what their time zone is, what their region is. It's very powerful in terms of bringing together a large group of people who all have the opportunity to work towards a common goal when it comes to one of these, like, volunteer experiences.

Yeah. I love that. And I I know we hear it well. I know Ben.

They do great work. And and taking that a little bit further too, you know, if you think about what we were talking about earlier about how a lot of these CSR departments or employee engagement folks at companies don't have any staff to help them.

And they're often calling other other people to volunteer their time to help run employee engagement programs.

And those people are, you know, adding onto their already busy workday.

So I I think there are more and more opportunities for Submittable, We Hero, groups like that to provide services to companies, around employee engagement, around these things that that a company doesn't really know how to do well or doesn't have the resources to do well. And and, frankly, the pitch CSR talent group, that's why we're here too. I you know, when you think about CSR and ESG and sustainability, for a lot of these companies, it's it's an area that they don't have the knowledge and expertise or the depth of knowledge and expertise that they really do need. And we've done surveys of companies that they're all under resourced. They're all understaffed, especially given the impact goals that they're saying they wanna achieve.

We ask people directly, do you have the staff and resources you need to achieve your impact goals? And over fifty percent of them said no, which I think is getting worse as time goes on too because CEOs are making those impact goals even stronger to their credit, but they're not providing the resources they need. So that's where Submittable, We Hero, CSR talent group, all these different groups. That's why we're here because companies need this knowledge and expertise to to really implement something that's gonna be meaningful and achieve their impact goals.

It's such an interesting idea of, you know, these mid market companies that recognize the importance of CSR and employee engagement. And at the same time, to your exact point, Tom, they don't necessarily have the budget and the staffing to bring on multiple employees to help lead those programs. And so they're really looking for ways to engage and to participate, you know, and at the same time, they recognize, like, they don't have the capability of hiring large number of staff to do this work. And so frequently, I I come across companies who tend to have, like, one or two people that focus on it full time, and then they have, like, a lot of volunteers, and it's not their day job. And, you know, as much as those employees would like to engage and to commit the time and energy and focus to leading these CSR programs, they don't have that time. They don't have that expertise.

I was just looking back on this giving a numbers report, which I'm sure you can tell by now. Like, this is one of my favorite reports of the whole year. They do such a great job of of including data that I think is truly useful.

And a data point here is that, you know, companies, that have ten thousand or fewer employees, based on this survey, had a median of five full time employees on staff. And from thirty thousand employees all the way up to a hundred thousand employees, they only had ten people leading these. So we know this, like, mid market where you have so many corporations out there that have anywhere from five hundred employees up to several thousand employees. Like, likely, they have one or two people at at best that are responsible for implementing these types of programs. And it's not it's not difficult to, you know, find a technology provider that can give you software that lets you implement, volunteering or giving and matching program. But if you don't have the people and you don't have the staff and you don't have the expertise, then, you know, you're you're really starting out with a significant headwind in terms of trying to develop a program that's gonna be successful.

I'm curious from your perspective, Sam. I haven't thought about this, but, let me turn it around to you.

Why are we still dealing with this?

Again, I've been in this space for a long time.

There's been so much work done on talking about the value of employee engagement or companies, you know, doing the right thing around ESG, CSR, sustainability.

But it does seem to be the area that is is always underfunded or under resourced or the first to be cut when times are tough.

And, you know, I think it's up to us as leaders in this space or, you know, thought leaders in this space to keep rethinking, that value proposition and the kinds of information CEOs and senior leaders need to convince them that this really is important. And so I think we're getting a lot better at that. At least it's gotten better in the last ten years from what I've seen. But I don't think we're there yet because I think that that they still see it as a department that is costing money and not, bringing the the bottom line value that they need to use to justify to their investors or their board or whoever it might be.

Yeah. I I mostly agree. Like, I think that, you know, especially among the largest corporations out there, the Fortune one hundred, maybe it's the Fortune two fifty.

I think at that level, they've really begun to see that these programs are almost non optional, especially as we begin to see younger workers, Gen z, come into the workforce, and they're clearly stating their expectations around employers, giving them access to these types of programs, to having shared and aligned values with them. So corporate purpose, I think, among really large, companies is becoming a much easier sell, so to speak. I think they're recognizing that it's not not optional anymore. I think where things are getting interesting are these companies that are in this mid market space. You know, maybe it's ten thousand employees.

A lot of those companies are beginning to to see that, you know, the Walmarts of the world, the Best Buyers of the world, they have these programs.

They're working. They're helping to engage and retain employees. They are creating positive reputational benefits, you know, in their communities, and that it gives them all an opportunity to really, like, give back, to have that license to operate, as we used to say, in their their local communities.

But they're they're stuck a little bit because they may not have the funding, the budget, or the expertise to be able to to sustain these programs. And so I think that's the big opportunity for the submittables of the world and and for organizations like yours to be able to, like, find ways to enable these midsize companies to participate without necessarily having, the staff or the expertise or the enormous budget that it takes to sometimes maintain these programs at a really large scale.

I think that's right. And I think what's interesting about the work we're doing now, and I'd love to hear how you're seeing this too, is companies hire people to you know, generalists, in some cases, to do a lot of different things. So your employee engagement person in a company, especially these mid market ones, may be doing everything, grant making, running the events, and just completely overworked.

Where there's an opportunity, I think, is and and it was interesting when I I interviewed these five folks. They've worked at Gap, JPMorgan Chase, Clorox for fifteen years, Charles Schwab.

You know, they bring this understanding and knowledge and perspective that if we could get them into some of these mid market companies, even just for a couple hours, they don't see this world as much as you and I do.

It may be new to them. And so they may sort of see what Walmart's doing or Pfizer's doing or some of these big companies are doing. But in general, they're, you know, they're busy people too, and they're just trying to keep their company afloat or, you know, meet some stakeholder expectations. So if we can get an expert in there, even just for a day to say, look. This is how it works.

You don't have to be afraid of it. You can take baby steps, but here's the first step you should take. And, you know, here's what it could look like in five years, and, it doesn't have to cost that much. I think everybody these CEOs, these senior leaders don't understand what this world looks like.

They just think of it as a cost center, and they they don't wanna go down that path where they're committing to something that's gonna be too costly, and then they have to pull back. So that's what we've been doing with a lot of these senior leaders. They they they're doing a bit of hand holding and saying, don't worry about it. Do this small piece first and see how it goes, and we'll get some metrics for you, and and you can build over time.

So I think there's a way to encourage companies, you know, to do things without going full bore, that will lead them down a path that's really gonna be beneficial for them.

Yeah. I think that to your point, Tom, that is absolutely correct that we talk with a lot of companies really, you know, from from the smallest to the largest. But from the small to mid sized companies out there, you know, there is a real desire to participate. And, I think that they're looking for strategic partners that can help them start small and scale over time. And I think that's the onus on, on companies like CSR Talent Group and and Submittable and and all of our peers across this, this sector, all all of the technology companies, you know, all all of the organizations that participate in enabling CSR programs. Like, the onus is on us to find ways to really function as a strategic partner to help demonstrate that there's not necessarily a high cost to get involved, that you can see real, measurable, engaging results by starting small and then scaling over time.

You know, educating organizations, companies, nonprofits on how they can be more participatory and more democratized. Like, that's the secret sauce. And I think that's where this CSR industry, so to speak, is really going to see some significant growth over the next three years or so. Is as we begin to figure out, like, how do we penetrate this small to mid market and enable them to achieve amazing results without having to spend a lot of time and money and energy and have that level of deep expertise.

I think you're right about that. And I've I've said this over the years that, you know, as a consultant, we were really spending our time with really large companies because they were the ones who would hire consultants, and and they were the ones that had big programs. But as you said, it's like the top, you know, the Fortune two fifty.

But there are tens of thousands of hundreds of thousands of companies out there that need help. And, you know, one thought I had when you approached us to do this podcast and I started reaching out to all these experts we have, I thought I wonder if there's a way that we can, provide this kind of broad range of expertise to companies, you know, question and answer series or to help them think through their approach, by getting, you know, a panel of people with a broad range of expertise who are weighing in on their particular issue. Because I think what happens in in our world a lot is that you hear from one company or you hear from one consultant or you hear from, from anybody in this space.

It doesn't always necessarily apply to every other company. So if you're talking about Walmart or Pfizer like we have, I'm a I'm a small company. It doesn't apply to me. I don't know what you're talking about. So how do we get companies like that access to information that really applies to their particular situation without charging a lot of money and and making it difficult or or frightening for them to even stick a toe in the water. So I I look forward to thinking that through, and I think that's one of the reasons we started this network and why you guys are, you know, collaborating with or combining forces of We Hero and WiseHive.

You know, companies need a lot of different options and ideas, beyond what you see at the conferences or, you know, a traditional, convening that's really focusing on the large companies in this world.

Well, I couldn't agree with you more, Tom. And, man, this has been a really fun conversation. And now I feel inspired to get out there and help, all of the people who are running food trucks and, you know, small businesses. I'm looking for ways now to get them engaged in, employee engagement and CSR and social impact. So, I'd love to just thank you for for joining me today and for having such an, interesting and engaging conversation.

Just in closing, was there anything else that that maybe you learned from your five experts in all of your interviews across your organization that, that would be helpful for, organizations who are looking at and trying to figure out how to ramp up an employee engagement program?

I I think we touched on a lot of the big issues.

I think a couple of things that that really stood out to me, that that we have sort of talked about, but it does start with the leadership. And, you know, when people talked about the great things they did at Gap or any of these other companies, it was clear that they had the backing and support of senior leaders. So if you're out there beating your head against the wall or trying to figure out how to get something started, I think a great place to start would be some sort of educational or or connection with senior leadership around what this world looks like, what it can be, what we were starting to talk about, and, you know, educating them in a way that doesn't feel forced or, you know, difficult, but really understanding what the senior leaders need to be able to, take that first step and and get behind this.

And that could be case studies or stories or, or what we've talked about, you know, connecting with an an expert or or you guys at Submittable, you know, to help them understand what the first couple of steps might be. And then the second thing is, I I keep coming back to that middle level management too. So, you know, how do you make sure that you're understanding what their concerns are? Because senior leaders may impose something, and the middle managers are going, I don't know how we're gonna do this.

You've already increased my workload. So talk to me first before you start implementing some program that's gonna take my workers away from me and and make me lose, not meet my goals. So I guess the short answer is connect with management and make sure they understand or or you hear what their concerns are, before you start implementing something that's not gonna go very far.

And middle managers across the globe are cheering you on right now, Tom. So thank you for those wise words, and thank you again for the great conversation today. I had a lot of fun, and I learned a ton. And I will look forward to, getting to have another conversation with you, I hope, in the near future.

Thank you, Sam. It was a pleasure. I I really appreciate it, and, thank you for letting me go off on tangents and some big picture ideas that it was fun.

So I hope it was helpful for all your listeners, and, feel free to for anybody to reach out if they have any questions we can be helpful with.

For CSR practitioners and leaders today, there is a big push to go beyond getting people involved to make them feel more connected. Whether you create opportunities like phone banking or package assembly that people can do at home or set up activities in the break room, it's key to give everyone a way into the work that feels right for them.

It's heartening to see that focus on deeper engagement and not just surface level metrics, And I'm glad there are organizations like CSR Talent Group out there who are supporting this work. Thanks for tuning in to Impact Audio, produced by your friends at Submittable.

Until next time.